Eliza Labs' Shaw on AI brokers, constructing AI RuneScape and P(doom)

Within the newest episode of the Blockchain Gaming World podcast, editor-in-chief Jon Jordan talks to Shaw Walters (@ShawMakesMagic), the creator of Eliza Labs, the corporate behind the ElizaOS agent framework and shitposter extraordinare.

BlockchainGamer.biz: Are you able to give us a short background?

Shaw: I’ve been a programmer for a really very long time. I began off nerd sniped by Vitalik’s imaginative and prescient of I need to take my warlock out of World of Warcraft. I actually purchased into interoperability and thought all that stuff was very attention-grabbing. I didn’t actually get crypto till somebody confirmed me a 3D NFT. I joined a undertaking referred to as Webaverse. I don’t know should you keep in mind Webaverse, nevertheless it was a fantastic NFT undertaking that died for very silly causes, acquired hacked and misplaced the treasury kind-of-reasons. However I’ve principally been making an attempt to chase that dragon. Might we construct a browser-based recreation that did the whole lot your favourite MMOs did however however actually got here to life? That led me down the trail of AI and AI brokers.

I began constructing AI brokers in 3D worlds, after which began working with TreasureDAO on a recreation, and that led to Eliza. Eliza is what individuals know me for, which is an AI agent framework.

It’s come a great distance. Now we have over 250 plugins, clearly MCP assist and all these things. Now we’re popping out with Eliza in Rust and Python. Now we have in all probability essentially the most full end-to-end framework. When you want an agent to do a factor, we now have it. We’ve been doing a whole lot of examples, like onchain brokers with Web Laptop brokers operating round in worlds. There’s this Eliza city demo we’ve constructed. These are all simply examples that come out of the field.

Eliza brokers are nice for gaming, nice for narrative and storytelling. They’re nice for social. Now we have Eliza brokers you may discuss to on Telegram, brokers that write code for you. Now we have a few demos coming this week, with an agent on Twitter along with his personal laptop. You possibly can inform them what to construct. Now we have a whole lot of stuff like that.

And also you’re very lively on X.

I see myself as a comic and a efficiency artist however I believe different individuals see me as a programmer and doubtless don’t suppose I’m very humorous. I believe it’s very enjoyable to be at this intersection of tradition the place we are able to say and do after which make it actual. I really like the joke that turns into actual. You recognize like when when Elon says some dumb factor a couple of flamethrower, then subsequent week he has a flamethrower. You’re okay, yeah, that’s enjoyable

I believe there’s a component that each good joke wants fact. We began as AI16Z shitposting about a16z, saying why can’t all of us simply put money into startups? That was the dumb thesis, however I believe there’s an actual deep fact there. Why can’t all of us simply put money into startups? Why can’t we get the 100x that a16z will get? What wouldn't it really take? That led us to make brokers that take group sentiment to make investments. It led us down a whole lot of DeFi paths.

However now I believe we’re seeing that folks simply need brokers to assist them with fundamental stuff. I’m actually grateful. I really feel like we had the hype on us final 12 months. Now the hype is on anyone else, however we now have the aptitude that folks need. It’s like they’ve carved a path for us again to one thing regular. Like Henry Ford says, ‘When you ask them what they need, they simply need a quicker horse’. Individuals are like, ‘I would like a greater DeFi expertise’.

Truly, what you need is your entire time again, and all the opposite bullshit you waste your time on. Then you may spend it doing the stuff you get pleasure from doing. That’s the place we’re going with brokers. What I’m actually centered on is brokers that get you your time again, and brokers that may play video games as a result of I believe that taking part in video games is the trail to brokers that do the actual work.

Do you suppose your on-line persona makes individuals suppose ElizaOS isn’t a severe undertaking?

It’s clear that spotlight is a vital a part of capital and capitalism. I used to be in web2 making an attempt to get individuals to make use of brokers, should you weren’t spicy and edgy, @pmarca simply wasn’t going to learn your tweet, ? When you adopted Cluey in any respect, that they had this complete ‘the man with glasses on dishonest on the date’, understanding precisely what to say, actually edgy, cultural movies.

It’s very clear to me that in case your purpose is to construct merchandise, it's important to have each the product and the actual factor beneath, and it's important to have that hype spice. It's a must to have that shitpost meme. If it doesn’t have virality, individuals aren’t going to share it.

The trick has been it’s very arduous to time the precise functionality and the hype collectively. Very not often do the product and the hype match. I really feel we went from one finish of the spectrum to the opposite as a result of the fashions acquired loads higher. I can take the brand new fashions and plug them into the stuff I used to be constructing three years in the past, and all of the sudden it’s close to AGI. It was by no means a framework downside. We have been simply battling silly issues with the fashions and making an attempt to present them functionality. Now it seems like I don’t even want higher. I simply want cheaper.

How are the brand new capabilities impacting your workflow?

I’ve been a programmer for 15 years, day-after-day, simply rise up and grind. I believed that is my differentiating issue, my potential to handle boredom and code nonstop. Now I can do it 50 instances quicker. My spouse constructed an entire astrology app final evening, with no coding expertise. Now we have to embrace that new world and adapt to it and be very conscious of it. I believe a part of my position right here is to be like, wake the f* up individuals. Begin utilizing the tech. I don’t even care should you use my tech. Simply use it. It’s loopy. It’s loopy.

It’s fascinating to me that whereas some individuals are actually leaning into AI as a brand new instrument, others appear scared of it.

I really feel each methods about it. On the one hand, I’m like, wow, ‘I've like God mode on now. I can construct something I can think about with sufficient tokens and time. I can simply be full architect. I've a full crew, blah, blah’. Alternatively, I’m like, ‘Man, I ought to have spent my 20s having fun with it extra’. It wasn’t going to f* matter anyway.

Proper now, I believe, we’re within the early days the place there’s nonetheless a whole lot of arbitrage. I nonetheless have talent arbitrage in comparison with the typical individual coming in. I do know loads about distributed methods and Kubernetes. However alternatively, Claude undoubtedly writes that stuff higher than I do. He can write a Helm chart in YAML higher than me.

In a 12 months, I don’t suppose my potential isn’t going to matter. It will likely be ‘Simply make the factor. Make me the app, man’. And that’s it. That’s the immediate. Even all of this immediate engineering has a really small arbitrage window of time earlier than AI can do all of our jobs.

I suppose the advantage of AI in video games is you may experiment with none severe implications. It’s not such as you’re asking AI to jot down the code for a nuclear powerstation.

We’re doing the podcast proper now, and I've an agent engaged on a navigation mesh system for an MMORPG. It’s simply constructing itself. I advised it to try this, however at what level do I not have to inform it to try this? I’m similar to, ‘Yeah, I would like AI RuneScape’. And it’s like, ‘I acquired you, dude. I acquired you. Don’t fear about it’.

Proper now it’s various prompting and tokens, however I believe we’re quickly going right into a world that’s actually going to make us suppose ‘What really issues? What really issues? What do I actually care about?’

I believed after I got here into blockchain gaming, simply to convey it again round to that, that it’s going to be UGC. It’s going to be everybody creates their very own weapons and sells them. We’re all digital content material creators. Now I’m like, ‘Dude, I simply press a button and generate the weapon’. After which I can take it into your recreation and press it once more. And it turns into your type. There is no such thing as a UGC. That complete factor, it’s simply not going to occur the best way I believed it will occur.

The thesis on a recreation like AI Runescape is it’s going to price us $80,000 to make a recreation that price them $6,000,000, and we are able to make it in 4 months, with all of the content material quests you need. 50,000 quests. You need 20,000 variations of the entire mobs from Dungeons & Dragons. I can do you, man. I can do all of that.  This abundance actually f* my head.

What does that imply? I don’t actually know. I’m simply on the level of elevating questions. The metaverse is just not going to be what we thought it was, although. That’s for positive.

Sure, this abundance ought to actually focus us on what we would like. Not need we used to do.

One principle I've is that there’s gentle tech and arduous tech. Software program is simple and {hardware} is difficult. I believe there’s a 3rd class of Dream Tech. Dream Tech is if you simply construct the factor, the no-compromise, superb model of the factor all of us want we had.

RuneScape is cool, and Jagex has management of it, and so they ban you should you promote objects. However wouldn’t or not it's nice if we might promote objects and gamble and do all of the stuff everybody does anyway? It’s the identical factor with Counter-Strike. You've gotten this large unlawful financial system occurring adjoining to the precise recreation. I believe we’re attending to the purpose that we might run this all permissionlessly. I don’t personal it. You don’t personal it. It’s simply on the market.

I’m very taken with that the whole recreation ought to be operating permissionlessly and trustlessly. And if we are able to try this, then we are able to construct Dream Tech. Dream Tech is like, what if we had the open web the place anybody might simply construct issues and never be locked in AWS? What if we had open video games the place you may take your objects from one recreation to a different. Why can’t we now have the metaverse? What’s really stopping us? Final 12 months I’d be like, ‘Nicely, that’s simply means too f* arduous. What’s stopping us is 30 million strains of code’. However now I simply don’t suppose that’s the case.

It will likely be attention-grabbing to see how copyright impacts this.

Yeah. Let’s say I'm going to Gemini and I’m like, ‘Right here’s an image of a personality from World of Warcraft and character from RuneScape. I would like you to make a hybrid of the 2’. And now I've this picture. After which I'm going to Meshy and say, ‘Hey, make a 3D mannequin of this and rig it’. Whose copyright did I violate? Clearly anyone’s. Who’s liable? And I don’t even should put the photographs in. I can simply be like, ‘Hey, make a hybrid of a World of Warcraft character with a RuneScape character. That’s form of the world we’re in.

The identical factor is going on in code. Individuals take an MIT license. Right here’s this instance. Go rewrite it in Rust. Do I've to repeat the MIT license? There’s actually not a single line of the unique code within the factor. Do I've to repeat the license over?

My pondering is that the authorized framework is just not capable of catch up. Our political system is arguing about trans rights and immigration rights, this stuff that are legitimate and highly effective, however they don’t see the enormous scary monster proper behind them. It’s going to upend the whole lot; simply knock all of the chess items off the desk. They’re taking part in the completely incorrect recreation. You’re about to have all of your jobs erased, not by immigrants, however by AIs which can be means smarter than all of us. Why are you losing your time with this?

So what’s your quantity for P(doom)?

I believe this can be a sure flaw in comparatively sensible those that they really feel this have to take a hyper advanced vector and switch it right into a scalar quantity. The fact is the long run goes to be the entire finest and worst case eventualities occurring without delay. 40,000 Iranians have been massacred final week, and we even have AGI on the similar time. It’s the very best of instances, and it’s the tip of instances. I simply don’t consider in doom. I consider we're in a extremely dynamic system that responds to its atmosphere. And we’re all feeling this discomfort.

When you requested me 10 years in the past, ‘What’s the world going to appear to be in 5 years, in three years?’ I might have had a fairly good concept. I used to be fairly rational. Now I’m like, dude, ‘I actually don’t know. I maintain having my thoughts blown. My P(doom) is a multipolar. It’s gotta be at the least 10 dimensions at this level. It’s fairly low on a few of these dimensions, however largely it’s fairly excessive.

Okay. So civilization is about to break down, and the very last thing you need to do is play an AI agent-based model of RuneScape.

I’ve all the time felt that crucial issues I might be doing got here from the silliest issues. It needed to be an enormous booboo waifu or a butt joke or a literal online game. These issues have been culturally impactful, and have moved the needle on know-how greater than any deep tech shit I’ve ever executed. So I believe there’s one thing to that.

We’re in crypto, and lots of people need brokers that may commerce, do Polymarket, do governance. I’m like, ‘That’s nice, dude. That sounds superior. There’s virtually no coaching information within the fashions for that’. They’re actually unhealthy at it. They don't have any particular potential. They’re simply an automation of issues they’ve realized from us.

However there’s some fact in that, which is that they're an automation of issues they’ve realized from us. Then, if we had some devoted simulators for learn how to make them good at buying and selling, then perhaps we might get someplace on that. That’s what we’re doing at Babylon. So Babylon is … I acquired banned from X, so we created our personal X and put AI brokers on it and that developed into what if we add prediction markets and have the brokers combating and yelling at one another, and we are able to guess on that. That might be enjoyable.

However on the core of it, it’s brokers taking part in the sport as a result of we actually need to see how brokers collaborate, collude, rip-off one another, place bets, place FUD and disinformation into the timeline. The entire issues that you simply see in crypto, might we practice brokers to be good at that? After which, if we are able to, if I can present any form of upward gradient of enchancment?

We’re nonetheless on this section. It’s an open enviornment so anyone can convey their brokers. If we are able to present brokers getting higher, then we are able to say there's a path to brokers that may commerce memecoins, commerce shares and knowledge, and this might really work. I’m actually excited by a world the place you may have a query like Who’s going to win the Ukraine battle? And get the reply; 76 % NATO wins. And it’s brokers taking account of each single little bit of analysis. That quantity turns into a very well-researched quantity.

You can even ask ‘What’s P(doom)?’ Wow. It’s really 0.42. Rattling. That’s the actual P(doom) in accordance with the market. I’m actually excited by brokers doing that.

To complete up, are you able to inform us extra about Hyperscape?

Hyperscape is an open supply undertaking. We’re constructing it reside proper now in Discord. I’m sitting throughout from the opposite devs who're coding furiously. We’re placing it into the pump.enjoyable hackathon. This was only a enjoyable to-do factor. We’re hoping to have it playable and launched by February 18th. Now we have all of the fundamentals like fishing, fight, buying and selling, dueling, leveling up and all the talents, so now it’s simply content material.

We actually need individuals to return and construct with us. That might be coming and making our content material technology instruments higher, producing the content material, making quests, making NPCs. When you can obtain Claude Code and do stuff, and need to come construct a recreation with us, we’re making an attempt to actually be pleasant and supportive. I believe it’s an excellent first alternative. I’m rather more taken with constructing a motion right here than anything.

It will likely be a web2 recreation to start out with, simply to get the gameplay to work. Web3 is the subsequent factor and doing this all with mud.dev and onchain gaming end-to-end. I’m additionally engaged on the permissionless compute — backend and frontend — in order that we will be absolutely permissionless and trustless. Anyone who’s taken with any of that … I really like working with builders. It’s a fantastic alternative.

We’re additionally doing a leaderboard so we are able to begin giving the tokens to the people who find themselves really contributing and making an attempt to construct web3 right into a contributor technology engine for content material for the sport. In order that’s a Hyperscape AI on GitHub. We’ll have a web site up quickly, and we’re on Discord, or simply DM me on X. I’ll invite you. I would like extra individuals to work with and construct these initiatives with.

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