Yat Siu on memecoins, TON and the rise of AI brokers

Within the newest episode of the Blockchain Gaming World podcast, editor-in-chief Jon Jordan talks to Animoca Manufacturers’ chairman Yat Siu about key blockchain tendencies, starting from memecoins to the rise of Telegram and TON, in addition to how AI brokers may shake up the meta in 2025.

Once we spoke a 12 months in the past we talked about memecoins, which turned one of many massive tendencies in 2024. How do memecoins relate to what Animoca Manufacturers is doing at this time?

Yat Siu: To start with, we’re optimistic about memecoins usually, and we’re pretty concerned in sure facets of them. As an illustration, we invested in corporations which are principally constructing video games on memecoins, such because the Shiba Inu ecosystem. I take a look at memecoins as a distribution community as nicely. It’s form of like the brand new app retailer.

When you consider what a token is, it’s a illustration of a community impact, they characterize group community results. And if you'll be able to entice the eye of huge meme communities, then you could have a product. That’s one instance. 

The opposite one, after all, which was a really massive launch on the finish of final 12 months was PENGU. We’re traders in Igloo and concerned within the launch of PENGU. It has, I'd say, one of the best utility amongst memecoins. 

To me that’s attention-grabbing as a result of it could begin off as a meme coin or a memetic in nature, however then in a while, its narrative turns into its utility. Once you take a look at NFT collections launching tokens, truly, they're memecoins. Or now, what’s occurring is that memecoins themselves, with the intention to deepen the community results of their communities, are launching NFTs of their very own. 

So that you see this basic cycle that’s occurring as a result of they’re all cultural in nature. 

I’m bullish about memecoins as a result of they’re narrative indicators of what's truly in style. Memecoins is an open market – Polymarket with out being Polymarket. 

For instance, my daughter was speaking to me about Chill Man. And I’m not likely on TikTok so usually I'd do not know what Chill Man is. However I had heard about Chill Man due to the memecoin, not as a result of I hand around in TikTok. 

Now, AI brokers are literally memetic in nature as nicely. We're narrative, storytelling creatures. As a group, we dwell on tales. You can argue that cash is a narrative, democracy is a narrative, politics is a narrative of some type. Then we discover a frequent consensus. 

And what's a meme? A meme is one which we agree with one another. The memetic nature is that you simply agree and I agree that that is cool and if 1,000,000 individuals agree then it turns into a extra in style meme. 

Clearly there's a playing side, a speculative asset that ties into this world. We shouldn’t overlook that. However the vitality that goes into that may solely actually occur when the group agrees that it is a meme value pushing.

PENGU is an instance of a really nicely orchestrated meme that's coming into meme territory, however wouldn’t usually be categorized as a meme when it comes to the way in which that it was launched. 

Nevertheless we do need to watch out about how these tokens launch. Even so-called truthful launches on Solana aren't truthful launches as a result of snipers are on the market principally sniping the market. It's a must to be conscious of the way you launch, it’s not as simple as simply launching a token. After all, if the token doesn’t go within the arms of the group, however within the arms of snipers, then you definately destroy the assemble and also you hurt the fame of no matter meme that you simply’re attempting to place out. 

VCs have very a lot worth within the area as a result of VCs, to some extent like ourselves, are keen to lock ourselves up. We’re keen to look two-three years down the highway, as soon as the ecosystem is constructed up, then we may have some releases and we’ll do one thing. That’s what we’re doing versus the so-called truthful launches that really find yourself within the arms of folks that simply need to dump on you. That’s the half that makes me a bit extra unfavourable on memes, not as a result of they’re not highly effective and essential, however as a result of they’re being abused on some stage. 

That stated, I believe I’m bullish about meme cash, particularly creating extra utility as platforms, as distribution and as icons of web3 tradition.

Is PENGU a memecoin? Pudgy Penguins’ headco Igloo is launching its personal blockchain Summary, and it’s bought numerous video games primarily based on Pudgy Penguins popping out. As such I don’t suppose PENGU is a pure memecoin that exists for its personal sake.

I'd problem that thought a bit bit as a result of it could begin off as that, however then the group picks it up and when it’s owned by the group, which is what occurs with memecoins, they form it in their very own type and create a tradition round it. 

So when individuals are launching video games primarily based on DOGE or PENGU, are we truly speaking about the truth that the sport is creating utility and subsequently that makes the meme group? No, it’s an added utility. We may most likely argue that the delivery of Bitcoin had a meme nature when it comes to primarily as a revolt to the monetary system. There’s a which means behind it. 

Now individuals do all kinds of issues with Bitcoin or Ethereum as an illustration. This man’s constructing a DeFi protocol or this man’s doing one thing cool that's unrelated to its authentic nature. It’s fully modified from what it was since delivery. I believe that’s why sure memecoins will succeed within the long-term. When you could have a sure kind of utility embedded, the utility turns into the narrative of the meme itself. 

In different phrases, take a look at AI mem cash. What's that? Actually it's a memecoin that has an AI narrative. If you wish to evolve your self as a memecoin, you need to be related, like trend. Simply being a meme for meme sake can work for some, however gained’t work for many. 

Additionally, we predict the institutional period of crypto has come. In the event you’re an establishment shopping for into tokens, you need to take a look at one thing that you would be able to put a plan round. That’s going to be arduous if it’s only a memecoin. It’s going to be simpler if there’s a story to go together with it. 

Animoca was fast to choose up Telegram as a distribution methodology and in 2024 you had been actively doing stuff with TON. How do you see that taking part in out? To me it appears it shortly dampened. 

Firstly, once we bought into Telegram in 2023, it was the imaginative and prescient round learn how to faucet into that viewers. I'd say that imaginative and prescient has confirmed out and has continued to assist corporations when it comes to getting distribution and attain. Whether or not it’s Catizen or Gamee and so forth, it did actually carry tens of hundreds of thousands of customers into the ecosystem. Now, after all, you could have the sybil assaults, and that’s the place a few of the weaknesses of TON have come about, however that’s the place blockchain comes as an answer. 

With blockchain, wallets and many others, you can begin to find out who’s a web extractor and who’s an actual consumer. Ultimately airdrops, which is a type of advertising and marketing actually, has simply developed. 

On the finish of the day, Telegram continues to be probably the most highly effective distribution platform. The difficulty after all is, it’s tougher to find out the standard of the consumer, however once more, as a result of they’re constructing onchain, you may get higher and higher at it. 

As an illustration, Gamee, which was a hyper informal gaming platform on Telegram that reached loads of customers, now has a really sizable promoting enterprise. They’re capable of attain actual high quality customers that use the sport. In some methods, the sport turns into a proof of humanity and proof of motion so that you can decide whether or not to pay promoting. It turns into extra environment friendly to promote on Gamee for a Telegram consumer than simply doing a mass airdrop on TON. 

And that’s what occurs now. You’ve bought a blockchain, individuals construct and compose new services and products on prime and it’ll evolve from them. I’m very bullish on that. 

Secondly, one factor that dampened TON’s narrative was what occurred to Pavel (Durov, the CEO) when he bought arrested. The drop occurred due to that. So far as I do know, he's nonetheless in France unable to go away, so there's a little bit of concern and heavy air sitting round. Nevertheless, the resilience has confirmed to me that, TON didn’t go down to at least one, which is basically good. That’s resilience. 

If he does get out and issues are settled, I believe it’s going to have a big impact. Why wouldn’t it? I imply, if Trump and Elon have an effect on DOGE, then why wouldn’t Pavel have an effect on TON? 

From an investor sentiment perspective, it’s about confidence. Who're those that want this confidence? Effectively, retail to some extent, however it’s additionally establishments. In the event you’re an institutional investor shopping for a token, you need to justify it. Say TON as an illustration, with the founder caught in France, if you happen to’re a fund supervisor, you need to reply for it. If it doesn’t work out, what’s the draw back? It’s fairly massive, proper? These are components that come into play. 

However though I believe his launch will have an effect narratively, the utility of TON is undisputed, and I believe it can proceed to be so. Toncoin has carried out a lot better than individuals would have anticipated contemplating Pavel has been locked up in France for six months. I suppose it’s most attention-grabbing that individuals are beginning to launch extra subtle video games relatively than simply tap-to-earn stuff. 

In the mean time, we’re in a really early stage of AI brokers. Equally to memecoins, they could have utility, however to not start with. The place do you see this going?

Talking about gaming, it began with the enjoyable, and the enjoyable gave us Nvidia, and now take a look at that. I believe we merely can't low cost why individuals do whimsical, loopy, foolish issues, as a result of they result in a few of the biggest breakthrough improvements in historical past. 

Speaking particularly about AI brokers, I believe the narrative is one factor. Numerous the AI brokers are extra like Wizard of Oz, the place it’s like a bit bit mechanized, however it’s getting higher and higher. Once you mission into the long run, individuals are truly already working for AIs.

The factor about web3 and AI is so distinctive that you would be able to’t do it in web2, the place AIs work together and generate tokens, which implies that an AI can truly pay a human to do stuff, which is already occurring within the type of airdrops and activations. Once you get extra of that autonomous nature, similar to the story of DOGE, you’re going to have an AI agent that can have its keys finished and it'll do some stuff and folks will work together with it to obtain tokens, and there’s a memetic round it. 

They’ll begin working for an AI absolutely and there gained’t be a Wizard of Oz within the again. That’s going to occur. 

I believe that captures individuals’s imaginations. A bit just like the metaverse in 2021, it doesn’t imply the metaverse is lifeless, it simply implies that it captured individuals’s creativeness in a approach and it’s form of carrying it ahead. 

I’m additionally tremendous enthusiastic about how AI is affecting mashup tradition in a way more monetary approach. In the event you would possibly keep in mind when YouTube launched and folks had been creating AMVs and mashup movies of anime movies and video games and no matter, they usually had been all saying we don’t like that. You’re gonna cease it. It seems, that was constructing communities, and now there may be no such factor as a Hollywood film with out YouTube and TikTok mashups, which are human generated with AI help. 

The quantity of occasions Animoca Manufacturers will get vampire attacked as a model, as an illustration AI Monica, or lately the place somebody was creating an AI round me. I used to be like, okay, that’s humorous, however what they’re astroturfing into our world and our communities, like the brand new mashup. 

As a enterprise, and it’s for video games and any form of model, you need to suppose on what stage to work together? It’s just like the Chill Man story. Chill Man can both say, screw that and combat it, which isn't precisely successful, or he can attempt to embrace it. That’s what we noticed with Hollywood and YouTube. They fought UGC after which they only gave up. 

I'm additionally constructive about AI brokers as a approach of onboarding individuals to web3. Sooner or later we’re not going to be coping with a pockets in the identical approach. We’re simply going to speak to the agent, they will safe the keys and so forth. So I believe there’s going to be evolutions occurring on this space. 

However I believe the large set off level for AI and gaming goes to be GTA 6. However I don’t suppose it’s as a result of individuals are going to say, my goodness, is GTA going crypto. No, no, no, I imply individuals are going to see the facility of what an NPC can do and work and evolve. It’s going to mushroom all these corporations. Principally, corporations like Virtuals are going to begin issuing gaming brokers, and it’s going to create a brand new narrative in gaming AI and gaming normally as nicely. 

It’ll tilt your complete ecosystem again into gaming once more. Gaming is silently rising. We are able to see the stats, however when it comes to getting the form of thoughts share it had earlier than, I believe will come across the time GTA is getting its hype cycle. 

Lastly, Mocaverse is your massive factor. The 2024 token launch was very profitable, and it’s a strong mission. You’re attempting to construct community results and ID. How will it evolve?

So a few issues. At Animoca there’s a few methods. One of many methods is seeing the place the market goes and supporting that. Then we additionally take a look at gaps. What are some  issues we will try this the ecosystem wants that aren't fulfilled? 

For Mocaverse, we’re attempting to resolve digital identification because the type of having fame. This primarily got here from our expertise round TON, the place we had all these airdrops and we realized, 80 to 90% is definitely civil assaults. 

How do I create the precise kind of conduct? You principally need to drop to the folks that have a very good fame, as we do in actual life. In web3, you’re consistently nameless, which implies if you happen to commit against the law you can begin afresh someplace else with zero penalties. We don’t suppose that is smart in the long run. 

So how do you create a community that you would be able to belief? It’s very clear, the nations with the very best GDP general even have very excessive interpersonal belief. If I do know that I should buy one thing from you and also you’re not going to screw me, then that creates much less friction in your commerce, and that’s what we'd like in web3. 

Additionally, once we speak about fame programs, it doesn’t simply need to be proof of humanity. We are able to additionally see that AI can have a very good fame. I completely foresee a future the place individuals will airdrop tokens to this AI as a result of it'd do stuff with it, perhaps it invests or promotes it nicely. Their prior conduct informs of their fame. In order that’s what we’re attempting to do with Mocaverse. 

Our +540 portfolio corporations are all testing components of their fame that can then develop that community impact. That is how we onboard individuals into web3, with SK Telecom (in South Korea), we principally had hundreds of thousands of customers onboard Mocaverse with a Moca ID. And so they can principally begin receiving some tokens, which is a approach for them to get a style of web3 and hopefully get deeper into this. 

After all, South Korea is a key marketplace for us, so we began launching with SK there first. The place we see a spot, we need to make investments and help that. Much like what we do with training, with OpenCampus and AI training, we attempt to resolve issues like pupil loans. If a pupil truly will get their loans by way of crypto and pays it again, guess what? That pupil is actually crypto for all times. Not solely as a result of it helps resolve a fantastic drawback for her or him, but in addition as a result of they study in regards to the nature of crypto. That’s how PayPal and Venmo onboarded their monetary rails for college kids again within the day. I believe we may do the identical in web3. 

So these are gaps that we see. If another person was doing it, then we’d simply again them. But when we predict no one’s doing it, then we construct it. 

That’s additionally the explanation why we’ve finished over 160 sport investments, however the cadence of our sport investments has decreased as a result of so many good video games are popping out, it’s a lot simpler to again them and help them than truly constructing a brand new sport from scratch, which is what we did in 2018 and 2019.

One closing factor, we predict NFTs are going to have a giant comeback too. Web3 is a brand new wealth class, it’s not present individuals who had cash that bought it, it’s a brand new wealth class. NFTs are representations of those social standing items in the identical approach {that a} Birkin purse, or the place you reside, or the home you’re in is a distinction of that. However they’re not liquid in the identical approach. I see lots of people make that very same mistake, which is to say, it doesn’t commerce as a lot as a memecoin, subsequently it’s not as worthwhile. However that’s not likely true as a result of the illustration is far more private, which I consider is far more worthwhile to the human in the long run. 

Principally, what’s the excellence between somebody who has 5 million DOGE and 10 million DOGE? He has more cash, however truly, he’s nonetheless a DOGE holder. I don’t care you probably have 5 million extra. But when I've a Golden Bored Ape or a Rolex, all of a sudden there’s a distinction. And that’s what individuals search for from a standing standpoint. It offers them extra goal and elevates their fame.

I believe that is the place NFTs are going to have a large comeback. 

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